The Shift with Greg James
A video podcast on how we work in the modern world — conversations with industry experts and the next generation of Gen Z workers on finding purpose in work, and whether these changes are actually working for us.
The Shift with Greg James
Identity, Authenticity and Value | The Shift with Greg James
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Who are you when your job title disappears?
In the debut episode of The Shift with Greg James, Greg sits down with Joy Doyin Ogunneye - Global Innovation & Brand Comms Lead for Aveeno Face, Sun & Hair - who traded a career in banking for twenty-five years in beauty. Then he brings in Nat Chavis, an NYU integrated marketing grad student, agency intern, and self-taught garment maker, to offer the next-gen read on the same question.
They get into what happens to your sense of self when work stops being a place you go, why authenticity became a job requirement instead of a personality trait, and how the thing that makes you different at work might be the most valuable thing you bring.
Two generations. One honest conversation about who we really are at work.
This episode:
- Joy Doyin Ogunneye - Global Innovation & Brand Comms Lead, Aveeno Face, Sun & Hair. Twenty-five-year marketer, banking-to-beauty pivot, former host of The Joy in Failure.
- Nat Chavis - NYU grad student in integrated marketing (data analytics), sports and entertainment agency intern, self-taught garment maker.
The Shift with Greg James asks one question across every episode: is this new working world actually working for us? New episodes twice a month.
Going into my career, I think it's more important for me to find the place that really finds me and chooses me as a person, holds me with value and supports me. And that's more important to me than trying to find, you know, the best position or the best job or the best place.
SPEAKER_01On this episode, I sat down with Joy Doyen Ogeneye to talk about identity, authenticity, and value. We talked about her amazing CV and how she shows up authentically no matter where she is, whether it's in the banking industry or the beauty industry. We talk about her mission to change the beauty industry, to be more inclusive, and how that starts in small ways. And we talk about how there are limits to exactly how much of ourselves we should or shouldn't bring to work, and that being kind isn't exactly the same thing as being nice. Then we sat down with our next gen guest, Nat Chavez, who shares with us his ambitions as a designer who's just launched his own clothing brand, and he comes to us for advice and questions about everything we talk about. I am so pleased to be here with Joy Doyen Ogeneye. Joy is literally one of the happiest people. Well, you are one of the happiest people I've ever met, and you will now meet. Joy is the global head of innovation and brand communications for Aveno at Kenview. So when you need smart beauty products, you know where to go. She's also where we met is that Joy is a US scholar with the Marketing Academy. That's where we met a couple of years ago, which we'll talk about. Joy has over 15 years' experience in global marketing for some massive brands out there in the world for JJ, for L'Oreal, for Revlon. You'll correct me when I lose them. But beyond that, Joy's just like a joyful person, genuinely. Joy by name, joy by nature. And the infectious energy that I love is why I really wanted to sit down and talk to her. So thank you for being here, Joy.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for having me here. Super excited.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's always a pleasure. We last saw each other in the south of France. It was a little more very, very hot. It was super hot, but super chill. We're going to talk about identity and authenticity and values. And these are really important in like in the conversation about work. People talk a lot today about like how to show up authentically at work. But go go back to the beginning for you, right? So I said you are joy by name, joy by nature. This is literally true. And it is something you've like leaned into. Like I'm an optimistic person, you're a joyful person, you bring that. Tell us about how that was, right? How have you made like why does it matter that you're like a nice, friendly, joyful person at work?
SPEAKER_02Great question. So I you you stole it where I like to always introduce myself, as you know, as Joy, one of the happiest people you'll ever meet. And sometimes I think there's the connotation where I've always been that way. I truly have always been joyful, but I don't think I've always identified myself as that or really knew who I was. And I would say there was a pivotal moment that happened to me when I had my I experienced my first layoff. And so this, you know, this was like years ago. So since then I've had several.
SPEAKER_01So you were getting laid off. Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yes. So I was let go from work. And a friend of mine, she was having that same day that I was let go from work, she was having um a party, not a party, because she was basically starting a new venture. Okay, and so she wanted her friends, her people she's worked with to come support her. So I already had plans to go support her. And so I heard this news you go to work that you've just been laid off. And at the same time, I felt, well, I still need to show up for my friend. And so I went to this, I would say, networking event. And as you know, when you go to these networking events, when people come up to you, the first thing they ask you is, What do you do? And I had that experience when Were you just like bursting into tears at the moment? I didn't, I couldn't controlled myself, right? And so I was there, someone you know comes up to me. We were just chatting or started the conversation, and the first thing she asked me was, What do you do? And I was speechless because I I'd just been laid off. What do I say? And I remember the first thing that came to mind was I'm on a sabbatical. And then she looked at me and then she walked off. So, first of all, I was too boring for her because I didn't know you know, sabbatical, what it what is that? But then I had to kind of start probing myself. I asked myself, why did I say I'm a sabbatical? Why didn't I just say I was laid off? Right? Like what was I started kind of just digging through and realized there was this shame aspect to being laid off and started really drilling down and came to terms with the real realization that I didn't know who I was without my title. So now I didn't have a job. Now I didn't have a title. Who was I? And so I felt that moment and that experience gave me an opportunity to kind of go deeper and truly figure out who am I, what's my why, who I who do I want to be, and how do I want to show up. And so read books, I would say you kind of go into this, you know, um, healing journey. And one book that was amazing was Simon Sinek's Start with Why. And so I delved into that and determined and decided that going forward I would, you know, figure out what my why is. And I figured out that my why is to bring joy into people's lives. And so I then rooted that in who I wanted to show up as and not as my job, not as my title. Those are roles, they come and go. But who am I at the core is joy, the happiest people person you'll ever meet?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I felt like you were taking us to a dark place to begin with with the layoffs. And I'm like, is this how we're starting? But no, you brought back the joy. So in your career, right, you've got a genuinely impressive career, but but and you've worked in all these like legit corporate places, right? These are big, like blue chip company names. So do you think what you're describing is harder in those environments? Because like I think if you work for a small, if you let's say particularly if you're like say you're starting out in work, right? And you go to work for like an an independent company, whether it's like a beauty startup or whether it's um you know a creative business or whatever, like you know, there's more individuality within that, but you're working in big, like thousand-person companies, like lots of people. So do you think that journey you're describing is harder in there? Do you think there's more infrastructure because there's more policies around like how to everyone should treat each other? Like, how how do you think it compares?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a very good question. Because it could it could go either way, because it all just depends on the culture of the company that you're also going into. You're going into a much more established culture versus going into a culture that is forming and you feel as though you are there to shape it. So it feels exactly for those kind of iconic companies where it's okay, things are already established. So how do I still bring myself, my full self, without having to feel like as though I get lost?
SPEAKER_01My boss always says to me here, he'll say here have asked in my job, he'll be like, You you basically change the business one person at a time. So, how do you show up for that person? What are your expectations with that one conversation? It's you don't just go, oh, today we're doing it this way and everything changes, it's like one step at a time. Exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Completely agree.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so controversially, yes, I have a counter opinion on um some of this discussion about authenticity, right? Which is that one of the things that a lot of people are told as they're coming into the workplace is be your authentic self. We can we bring your full self to work, be your whole thing. And actually, I'm a bit like there are parts of you I do not need you to bring to work, right? There are things that I'm like, that is a thing you we don't need to do that here. You you're you know, yes, I want you to feel comfortable and and I want you to feel like you're not soul crushed, as you said. But I'm like, there's things that's appropriate in the workplace, and things that I'm like, well that's not what we're doing here. We're just paying you to come in for a bit and go home again. What do you find, how do you find like um your journey now, 15 plus years later, like as you nurture new talent coming in, what do you observe about that authenticity now? Is it easier for people to show up as themselves? Are they bringing the right bits? Am I just being crazy and tough saying don't bring everything? Like what what where where do you stand on that matter?
SPEAKER_02You know, I kind of agree with you. So, you know, because I agree with you, where is it's a balance. Is it with is like everything else, right? There is a spectrum with yes, there's the authenticity and show up as yourself. But at the same time, I I don't there are different selves of me that I don't think I necessarily want to show everyone. The self of me when I'm mad and I just want to yell. That doesn't matter. I wouldn't do, oh yes, it does. I wouldn't do their places that are appropriate. I'm not gonna do that at work, right? Right? Like, yeah, there are people, or I guess um people who have accepted me for who I am that I'll do in front of, but not at work. It's like finding that balance and still understanding the etiquette and the protocols of where you are. So it's okay, because of I'm myself doesn't mean that I now have to force the place that I am in to change their way. I'm the one who chose to be in that, you know, in that company, in that place, you know their culture, you know the protocol. So just like I had chosen to be in a bank, I cannot now blame the bank for being how they are.
SPEAKER_03Right, right, right.
SPEAKER_02But it's how then within that culture, how then do I show up as me without losing my soul?
SPEAKER_01How do you help people? So so like because you're you're a good mentor and you manage teams, and as you said, you talk about like, you know, finding your people in a way. So how do you help people like spot the moments to fit in and the moments to stand out?
SPEAKER_02I would say it starts by always say reading the room. Reading the room and reading the culture, right? Like you've gone into, and this is the advice that I give um everyone, right? Both my team as well as beyond, is you go into that space, understand the rules of engagement, right? So I always say sometimes just be quiet and just observe. Like when you're in meetings, observe the players, observe how they respond to questions, observe what questions they're asking or what how they re how they're what answers they're giving. And really being able to understand that because it's like playing chess. If I don't understand the rules, then I can't even break the rules. So you have to be able to first understand the rules of engagement, read the room, and then you figure out in that space how then do I show up, but I know this person is this way, right? How do I meet them where they are? And it's just a read, it's the same way when you're dealing with relationships, is you have to be able to understand the other person first, to be able to say, okay, this is where, you know, this is where I navigate, this is how I work with them, this is how I act. But a lot of times people are not spending time to read the room, to spending time to really understand what's in the box. Like before you can really play in the box, you have to understand what's in there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's like there's a sense of like it's almost like entitlement sometimes, right? Like this is who I am, and I want to be accepted. And accepted or not, right? Exactly. But that's not the deal here, right? The one of lots of people, and yeah, it's an interesting balance. So you've worked in these different places when you get the mindset right, and then you find the fit. Um, how does it change what you get out of work when you kind of do the right balance of like showing up as your authentic self with you know fitting in? Like, how do you find that right balance?
SPEAKER_02Yes, it's experimental. Like you have to be able to be willing to fail. Sometimes I've not found the right balance, and that's how I was able to figure out okay, I went too far there. Okay, I shouldn't have done that, right? And not beat yourself about it. I always say every situation or every experience, it's a learning experience. So rather than dwelling, oh, I shoulda, woulda, coulda, just take a step back. What did I learn from that experience? Maybe I shouldn't have blurted out exactly what I thought in that experience because you received the reaction. And so it's in that moment, what do I do? How do I fix it? And if it's not fixable, you just learn from it. And so I would say it's trial and error. Right. Um, and also listening, take getting counsel, right? So it took a for me being able to ensure that I was listening to my mentors, listening to other people who would say, one thing I remember this was when I was working at Avon, new into the marketing space. A mentor of mine had told me to understand the unwritten rules. That was one. I didn't realize then I didn't know there were unwritten roles, right? Things that are not written. And so I think that gave me the inkling to be observant because there are things that people wouldn't say, but the more I could observe, I'm like, okay, those are the unwritten rules.
SPEAKER_01Um, and that's how you're how okay, so that's really interesting, right? Because the unwritten rules is to me like it's a big part of what I'm really interested in in these conversations too. Because it's like, how can you, if it's not written down, no one says in your induction pack, by the way, like so what would be examples? Like, what kind of things have you found that either you've tripped up on or that you've um like just now know, like these are the unwritten rules? Like, let's say someone's starting in your teams now and you do, you know, they've had the formal inductions in a big company. Like, what kind of things do you sort of say to them as you take them aside? You're like, oh listen, don't worry about this, do worry about that. What sort of stuff comes to mind?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, a great question. I would say one part, you learn the speaking of which, right? The learn what I've discovered is that you learn the own ritual roles, unwritten roles through people. Right? People are the, you know, they they they hold those unwritten roles. They're the ones who can tell you the 411, the things that people, other people wouldn't tell you that you wouldn't see in your rule book. Right. Right now, I don't think we even have our new role books or you know, when you start, but it's through people. Right. So when people join, I always say, make friends, right? Like spend a lot of time. I know we have those onboarding, sitting with this person, yada yada yada, but getting to know them beyond their role, getting to know them beyond their job, right? Rather than probably doing a Zoom call with them, go have lunch. Like do that onboarding over lunch.
SPEAKER_01That's but that's one of the key things about like hybrid work, right? Like when you're not, it's kind of easy to be like, well, actually, my work's easy. I don't need to go there because my job is all here. I can do this in a Zoom thing, but actually, it's all that informal interaction that's actually really valuable.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. The relationship building. And it's through those relationship buildings that, of course, give and take, right? Like you do for the person, you help them out, they help you, and they're the ones who would say, by the way, this is how this person is, this is what they look for, this is and those things help you know how you show up.
SPEAKER_01Right. Tell me a little bit about mentors. So looking upwards for you or beyond for you, yeah. Who what's an example of somebody or a moment where you feel someone did that for you? Like someone really like helped you find the right balance, be more authentic, spotted these, spotted the moment, um, and you felt really sort of supported by them.
SPEAKER_02Of course, I have you as my TMA mentor. Obviously. But I would say I've been very fortunate. The other day I was talking to my husband about it, and he was saying that I've been spoiled with having really great bosses. And you've got people go. I know. He's like, You've been spoiled. Have you forgotten all the you know horrible bosses that you've had?
SPEAKER_01Has he got bad bosses?
SPEAKER_02He's yes, he's had, but I think in that movie, I know, but he's stoic, so he's like, Yeah, that's what I he sometimes he actually says he's being realistic and not necessarily negative, but he just believes you're not supposed to be nice as a boss, you're not supposed to be good. Like he's just very, but I I'm of the of the camp where why can't you? Like you, you know, you can still be human and still have that authority and still have that influence. And I would say I've had one in boss in particular that comes to mind. Amazing. Like, I see her now. Now she's a friend, she's left the company. Um, now most of my bosses end up becoming friends. Um, but I would say she truly inspired me because I saw how she led, has five children, very bold, but very kind and nice. Like when you see her, you'll never know. And she'll tell you something in a very firm way, and she's smiling. And I'm thinking, oops, I want to be like that. And she doesn't lose, she had she didn't lose who she was in being that leader. And the way she supported me was I would say she would always tell me, and this was this was actually a learning for me. I had someone who was working under me. I I didn't really, I felt like we were we were loggerheads, and really there was a conflict between that, and I was just trying to figure out how do I lead her and all that in the right way. And she wanted to leave. She wanted to leave the team and go to another team. And I remember, you know, instantly feeling as though, oh, it's all about me. She's leaving because of me. And then my boss told me the best thing I can do is to support her to leave. The best thing I can do is to write her a great recommendation and ensure that she gets hired and all that. And it helped to switch that because as a boss, she's always she was and always been the type of boss who was always about how to promote talent. Even if she was going to lose you, it wasn't about her. It's how do we ensure that talent are in the places that they need to go? And that taught me how to do the same. And I felt that was like a pivotal moment for me in my leadership because I saw her do that. Yeah, I saw her support the team at a detriment to herself. Sometimes we will think as a detriment to herself, but I think it only helped us see the type of leader that we need to be.
SPEAKER_01I mean, that's hard to do because that's like that's a lot of that is like taking your ego out of it, right? And you feel and work can still feel really personal for people, and you feel like someone wants to go why and what is it me? What did I do? And yeah, it's a good, it's like a different kind of leadership maturity, right? Yeah, okay. So, last question for you. We've talked about bringing joy and how you bring joy, and that's part of your purpose. How does the joy lead to value? How do you make sure that like bringing that sense of nice but kind or kind and not nice, and the sort of sense of value uh joy that you bring to people, how does that really create value? How do you make sure it's doing like the most valuable, the right thing?
SPEAKER_02I would say a understanding what value means to whatever company that you're in, right? So understanding I always what always helps is looking at my goals. I think we all have those goals where these are the yearly goals. The the benefit of writing your yearly goals is you get, I feel you get to determine how you want to bring your yearly goals. I would say the joy aspect is the how I deliver, while the goals are the what, right? The values are the what. It's okay, this is this is what at the end of the year I want to say that I did. Right. How do I do that? That's how I bring the joy. Right. And so is it being with my cross-functional team where, and that always helps me, where it's I how do I get the team to accomplish the goal that we've all set to? Yeah, it's through the how. Yeah. It's how I do it. And then people are more likely to do what I ask because of how I do it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Right? We um we've done some work as a leadership team when in what I do, we've done some work around this like um this like uh platform about impact players. Impact players are those people that like work really well but kind of go above and beyond. And one of the things that they call out in that sort of way of thinking is about bringing the light to work. And it's like everything doesn't have to be serious. Yeah. You can like, you know, we used to say it's PR, not ER, right? It's like you you've got loads of um, we all have to be here, we have to work for a living. But if you can do it in a light way, yeah, that just makes everything easier, makes the day feel like it's going faster.
SPEAKER_02And more people are, I find they want to work with you because of that, right? I sometimes, even when I'm out, some people would say it just felt different, right? It felt different, it wasn't the same. The energy you bring is completely different. You're right. Sometimes we're talking about serious stuff, but then a joke makes things lighter. It's still serious, we still have to deal with it, but let's deal with it together. And let's uh and I've just found I bring the light. How do I, in every situation, bring the light, no matter what, right? In the tough, in the not so tough, but in the tough parts particularly. Um, so I would say it's the how, while the values that I bring, and I always want to bring value because at the end of the day, that's also what people, yes, people remember how you made them feel, but the tangible part is the value that they bring to you bring to their lives. The value is the valuable um that I bring to the PL of my company, right? Like at the end of the day, it's PNL, that's why I'm there, right? That's why I'm there. I'm I'm supposed to bring that value. Um, and so, but I would say I lean in my how to bring the value to the what. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Joy, thank you. It has been a joy as ever. Um, but don't go anywhere because we're now gonna bring up Nat and we're gonna talk a little bit more about someone in the kind of emerging part of their career and figure out if we made any sense whatsoever or if we're talking absolute rubbish. Joining us now is Nat Chavez. Nat is currently pursuing his master's degree in integrated marketing with something I could never do, a concentration in data analytics. I sort of need to, but it's really like not my jam. But before moving to New York, Nat studied um apparel marketing and management at SCAD at Savannah College of Art and Design, which, fun fact, my friend Bill used to run the film festival for SCAD. Yeah. Um, so that'll come in handy because now you're combining what you're doing in integrated marketing with your background in fashion, and you're now selling your own clothing designs, right? So congrats on that. Like an empire is coming, right? I hope. I hope so. Um, so listen, Nat has been with us listening to Joy and I, but we've been trying to talk a little bit about identity and authenticity and value. You're just you know, you've you're in the education. World, but you're starting your own kind of path. How important are the things we've been talking about? Like what weight do they hold? These kind of pieces of the puzzle?
SPEAKER_00I think for me, especially going into the workplace, it it's more important than anything. Um, I think for myself, I'm somebody that holds value to being authentic and showing up as yourself and being who you are in every space possible. And especially going into my career, I think it's more important for me to find the place that really finds me and chooses me as a person and is authentic to me and holds me with value and supports me and in what I want to do. And that's more important to me than trying to find, you know, the best position or the best job or the best place. I think that for it's important to me to know that I belong somewhere and that I'm welcome somewhere or welcome somewhere. And I think that's really what I'm looking for, especially right now doing the job searches and about to graduate. It's probably one of my biggest priorities at the moment.
SPEAKER_01How have you found um just like NYU versus SCAD life, right? Data analytics versus fashion life. Like, how's that? Has that been a little journey of different kind of authenticity?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was, it was, it was definitely a journey. Um when I got to SCAD, I think my biggest goal was to find my creative voice. Um so that was me learning how to sew, learning how to make garments, um, learning how to market those garments, learning how to put that whole thing together. And I think after I graduated, there was still a small piece of me that was like, um, I feel like there's another piece of this puzzle that we're not we're not there yet. Um and so I knew it was related to marketing, but I think my biggest thing was being able to back my creativity with data and research and information that um helped other people to understand why what I was doing was going to be successful. Um so I was like, you know what, I'm just going to take a risk here and just apply to NYU. And I found this program, and and honestly, it's been an amazing experience so far. Um, but this program has really shown me that you know the data side of it and the research side of it are just as important as the creative. Um and right now, kind of combining those two worlds together, they might seem like they're on opposite sides of the spectrum and opposite sides of doing things, but honestly, they come together so well, and it's been so cohesive being able to do my own creative thing and then being able to back that up with data and information that helps it to hold weight and hold value and to know for people that I'm um pitching it to that it's going to be successful because there's research to back that up.
SPEAKER_01Creativity and evidence, but he's like the dreamboat of left and right.
SPEAKER_02I love it.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so what from the conversation we were having before around that then, what kind of question does it prompt for you, right? What else is there anything like thinking about what Joy's experience was, what we talked about together? What should we say more about? What would help you? Was it helpful perspective? Questions.
SPEAKER_00I think the one question I have is kind of regarding being your yourself and showing up authentically. Um it's kind of you know, it's a little bit nerve-wracking to do that when you're not in the space of having your experience or accolades behind you. And I guess just kind of talking to the confidence that's needed in order to step into a room and show people that hey, I I want to be here and I want to show up as my authentic self. You know, I may not have the experience yet, but that's something that I look to do. Um, I think that's where I want to get some more advice on.
SPEAKER_01There's something uh you said before, Joy, that prompts m me to think that about that question, which is I in my career, like I started out working in a super creative agency. It was like a smaller business, it was hyper creative. And I was like, I remember going to work in the first week and wearing like sensible shoes, some very sensible trousers that I had. And I was like, I was kind of like the most sensible, least creative person in that environment, but actually it was a real benefit because people were like, it was like your my difference was sort of a superpower, and people looked at me and respected me in a certain way because I sort of had a different kind of background to them and a different different experience. So actually, being different and being authentic to who I was at that time and how one shot was really helpful. And it's interesting because fast forward when I left that company and worked for a bigger company, it ended up in a very bigger, sensible business. And I was like the most creative person there. And they were like, Oh, this guy's like wearing, he's like super chill, he's not wearing like the corporate America chino with his pager on his belt, and actually it was like a different kind of difference. So I I think that, and this is what when you were saying before, it kind of reminded me like you, you know, it's like, yes, you've got to fit in, but finding that authenticity and your difference is understanding like what's the value in your difference, and and like how do you then apply that, which I think Joy you were saying in terms of like you know, the unwritten rules or how do you find the value a little bit, right?
SPEAKER_02Yes, I love that um aspect of that's the diversity that we bring to the forefront, where we're not all supposed to be all the same, but we bring something, something magical that somebody else doesn't. And I would say one thing that has helped me is really identifying your talents and what you bring, because that's your value. Yes, there's a value that you're helping with the team, but what are you bringing that is different, very similar to what you were saying, Greg. You were bringing a different type of value that others weren't. So you were kind of it's like the yin to the yang. You were there was a perfect marriage because what they lacked, you brought. And so once you're able to really understand what is the value that I bring, what are the talents that I bring that probably a lot of times nobody else does, and that ends up being your superpower. So one thing that I love to lean into is your superpowers. They're superpowers, there are things that you bring that nobody else does, and that's what makes you stand out. That's what makes you unique. And so you can still have those superpowers and still blend those superpowers, but because you bring that, I find that you would feel less intimidated by other people and you'll be less in your head because you know, well, I bring something. Like, yes, I might not be the mathematician, but I bring something else that only you bring to the table. So it's truly being authentic and okay in what you bring, like that superpower, and leaning into that that I feel helps as you navigate the terrain of these new cultures that you're going to find yourself in.
SPEAKER_01How have you sort of, you know, in what you've been doing, how do you think you've adjusted to sort of show up specifically with authenticity in the work you've been doing and in the studies you've been following? Like how how like how have you tried to kind of show up with that authenticity?
SPEAKER_00The biggest thing for me is just knowing that, you know, within myself, what I'm doing is something that I truly love to do. Yeah, nobody or nobody can really take that away from me at this point. And so because it's so kind of ingrained in who I am, it's I don't, it's almost like I don't really have a choice. You know what I mean? Like I just have to show up in places and know that I am who I am. I love what I do. And even though this may be, you know, a different field, me going into data analytics, there's still pieces of that creative puzzle and sewing that make sense in the data analytics world. We can go into the details of like math and trying to figure out the measurements of certain pieces and how that connects to, you know.
SPEAKER_01I didn't even think of that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was honestly surprising for me to know that there's a lot of similarities between the two. Um, and so kind of having that faith in myself to be myself and show up with the background experience that I had, um, it honestly allowed me to segue into this the data analytics realm a little bit easier, um, just holding that confidence and knowing that, you know, amongst my classmates, I may not have the same background as them or I may not have come from the same kind of place. But the perspective that I bring is something that's very unique to the program and unique to the people that I'm meeting and unique to my professors, and bringing those new ideas has kind of been a um an encouraging thing for me to be like, hey, like, you know, even though you may not come from a specific background, you still offer value and you still bring something to the table that not many people in the room may be able to bring simply because you have such a unique history.
SPEAKER_01So now thinking about the whole notion of making the shift. Um what do you think like when you look at bigger organizations that aren't trying to do it themselves like you are right now, when you think about business case studies, like what do you think we're missing, right? We're both working in quite large organizations. What should we be more conscious of and aware of for people making the shift and starting out their careers today?
SPEAKER_00The biggest idea that I think we've definitely talked about so far has been people who kind of wear multiple hats and maybe start from a different background that isn't necessarily what's happening in the company, but those transferable skills can still be present and still be important. And um for me as going somebody going into the job search and doing interviews, I think that holding space for people who come from a different background is extremely important as the person being interviewed and having the time to understand that hey, you know, I may come from this type of background, but these skills of X, Y, and Z connect with what's happening in the business and what's happening in the company. And there have been times where I've you know maybe done interviews and that didn't come across very well, or that you know, the the person that was interviewing me was looking for a very specific. Like put you in a box, yeah, in a very specific experience. And it was hard to communicate that I still had those skills if I didn't have it on paper, or if I didn't have that experience specifically. So I think going into the um workforce and kind of going into the job search, it would mean a lot as somebody who's doing eight million different things to know that somebody is listening to all that and understanding that there are important skills in there that could be very helpful. And it may not show up on my resume, but when I go into the office and maybe have an idea, it could bring a new idea or it could bring something that you know was very helpful, it just wasn't on paper. Um, so I think holding space for that and allowing um somebody like myself to just express themselves and and almost prove that what I'm doing still connects and relates to this company or this business that I'm applying to.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I think it's a great point. I and I don't I think that I think that's true not just for people starting their career, but everybody through. Like we'll have conversations with like really senior recruiters and headhunters and things. And I'm like, you need to think differently about what this talent is and what this background is. Yes, yeah. All right, so um, last question for all of us, for both of you, certainly. Like, let's come back to this notion of the shift. So we've talked about this idea about bringing your identity, bringing your authenticity, driving this kind of value. Are those the right shifts? Like, do you it feels like yes? It feels like you're saying, yeah, if you can find the right place, you can bring that sense of self there. But back to my point about don't bring every bit of yourself to work. There is a little bit of this which is like find the right fit, look for asking the right questions, right? What what do you think? Do you feel like these shifts we've been talking about are helping you on the journey you're on?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. Um, especially talking to you guys and knowing your experience, it it it sound it echoes a lot of what I'm experiencing at the moment. Um, and I think the biggest thing is for me, kind of like you said, finding that balance between being yourself, but also showing up into a different, you know, establishment and kind of balancing that act of professionalism and being your true self that you are with your friends and when you might be angry. Um it's definitely um one of the biggest things that I'm trying to work on at the moment. Um, because I can remember times where I was a little too much of myself and almost embarrassed myself a little bit. Oh stories for the city. Tell us more, tell us more. Yeah, it was it was just times where I was very oversharing about the things that I do in my sewing career or the things that I do making clothes, and it wasn't in relation to the work that I was doing.
SPEAKER_01I need the overshare now.
SPEAKER_00What would be an example of that? So okay, so um I was working at a company and it was a remote position actually, and I remember that when I was in between breaks and taking calls, and I was in the call center, I would work on my pieces that I was working on. And so kind of balancing that act. And I remember one time I was talking to my team lead or the supervisor, and we were just doing a check-in and just you know, weekly about how things are going and whatnot. And I was so excited to talk to her about this jacket that I was making, and I was like, Yeah, like I'm making this jacket, and like here you go, you can see it. And long story short, a week later I got a meeting from her manager and was like, Hey, like, we just need to make sure that we're focused on the job that's at hand rather than you know.
SPEAKER_01That seems so weird. But you were doing the job, you weren't doing anything wrong with the job. You were just like I was taking a little bit longer.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I think you were less focused on the job because you you had this side hustle.
SPEAKER_01And they were like, This zoom, there's some noise on this zoom. Oh, that's much so much.
SPEAKER_00So um I didn't necessarily get it, I didn't get in trouble or I was still You didn't get fired. Yeah, no, it was I still had a good relationship with them, but that really showed me that it was important for me to understand when to bring those skills into certain places, and sometimes that skill just kind of needs to be a sort of double life that I have that is in the background and hopefully one day will lead to something of fruition, but not everyone's so great.
SPEAKER_01Like you've yeah, I feel like you've just backed up everything we've said about the shift, which is like, yes, be authentic, yes, bring these balances, but find the right time. Don't show up with like pins in your mouth and trying to do a call centered thing.
SPEAKER_02And that doesn't mean you're being fake, yeah, right, by doing that, it's just timing. There's a timing for everything and just being aware of that. This jacket is one of yours?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I made this jacket. Looking great today. Thank you so much. Nat, you've shown up looking smart on your own jacket, which is very impressive. Joy always looks impressive in her own designs or others. Thank you both so much for being here. This has been so great to talk to you both. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Pleasure, thank you. Such a pleasure meeting you too.
SPEAKER_01As we wind things down, I want to dig a little bit more on this notion of understanding the rules of engagement. There are written rules and there are unwritten rules. And it's really important, use your skills of observation in the workplace. Shifts are happening all the time, but it's really a game of chess. You have to figure out which are the rules that really matter, which are the rules you can break and bend when you're bringing your authentic self to work. You don't necessarily need to lose your authenticity, but you do have to recognize that you're coming into a workplace where you're creating value with a particular job to do in a particular way. So watch out for what works in that space and what doesn't work in that space, and find the right way to bring that value authentically in your distinct way. Thank you for listening to The Shift with Greg James. I'm Greg James, and I cannot wait to embark on the rest of the season and talk about all the ways that work and our world are shifting, whether for good or for bad. Times are changing and we're gonna talk about it.